Monday, June 16, 2014

Roper's Snapshot Redux | 7 Comments - Click Here :

    Keith Hayes - Chris Walker, our South Park friend from New Zealand, likes to root about the Denver Public Library photos, and examine them in great detail. In fact Chris, its time to contribute a couple posts here!
    In one instance, he published an image of the fireman's side C&S B-3-C #8. Chris noted the abundance of coal scoops lodged in the injector pipe in front of the cab. Consensus seemed to be that perhaps this fireman had lost a scoop on a previous run, and the roundhouse wanted him adequately outfitted for this trip. It brings to mind a number of details that I am not seeing on C&S locomotive models.

It's Mogul Month!

    Here is an image of #8 about to depart Denver with the Leadville Passenger in 1931. Three details are present. One, you can see what appears to be an extra coal scoop lodged under the injector pipe directly in front of the cab. Evidently our one fireman was not alone in needing a spare.
    Second, there is a 'L' shaped rod hanging over the handrail bracket at the steam dome. The end closest to the cab has a loop, and evidently this tool was used to clean out the firebox, or perhaps fish out a clinker. Look at photos of the engines, and most all of them have one of these. On the 2-8-0s, they are often hung over the injector. Once in a while, you will see a tool box, or perhaps a grip, on the running board directly in front of the cab. Sometimes, I see a handle lying perpendicular to the rails above the water wings, and this may be a second storage location.
    Third, most every image of a C&S loco has a long rod running diagonally across the fireman's side of the tender. I bet if you check your model, you will see a hook on the upper side of the water wing. This was for the handle of a long reamer: on the photo of #8, the business end is in a second bracket above the head of the conductor. On some locos, there either isn't a second bracket, or the fireman has wedged the reamer between the floorboards of the tender so it won't flail about on rough track.

    Lastly, in Tom Klinger's books, there are a number of images showing a wood pallet thrown up on the coal pile or on the tender deck. I suspect this is a gate placed above the coal doors between the water wings to increase the coal load. With the only coal stations at Denver, Pine Grove, Como, Dickey and Leadville, you want a full tender to get you to the next station! A ways into the trip, this gate was no longer needed, and moved out of the way until the next coal stop. These look to be made of (2) 4x4 verticals with some 2x6 or 2x8 cross pieces all bolted together.
These details are all very easy to model, and are just as distinctive as the Ridgeway spark arrestors!

Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
7 Comments - Click Here :
  1. Oh Dear, Thanks Keith.
    Nice to be thought of as a friend, I really don't know what to say...

    but I do have a few tidbits along the lines of what you have brought to the table here.

    In this Post's title picture of C&S #8 and hung in the brackets attached to the tender sides, in addition to the auger there is also a shorter clinkerhook. Note the end of this is a claw in the shape of a "C". Taking a look at the #8 McClure photo of the previous post, that same clinkerhook is stashed sideways across the waterlegs, the "C" appearing where the retainer valve is situated in later incarnations. That's a great help in determining the exact length of the handle in my book. Also while on that subject, a closer look at the handles of your fire-irons specifically in the shape. These are more of a wrought D than an round eyelet, the D fits the gloved hand better.

    Note that there are two main brackets with a third hook, a lighter version (rod instead) higher up and in between the "proper" riveted-on permanent strap brackets. Now nearly every C&S loco has these fire-iron supports yet are all individually applied in a non-standard way of design, construction and material along with number and location there of. Truly one of a kind modeling details specific to each Locomotive and Era. All you need is the pictures.

    Also I'd like to point out( without sounding like I'm nit-picking here) that your shovel is of a type used more for digging, not a true square mouth coalscoop. Give that one to the Sectionman! No hardship to make up those enmasse so all your Roundhouse (and Sandhouse) crews have them on hand(sigh). I'd also like to point out for those modern readers who have never shoveled anything in their lives that a pointbladed shovel will only move about 40% of material that an equivalent heel-width squaremouth, and if you have 12 tons of coal to shift on a trip, then you're going to be dancing all the way. Many, many modellers have made this mistake.

    Keith overlooked a 4th item, wedged against the Boiler jacket and the running board over the Main Reservoir is a coal pick, of a type either produced by the Eyeless Tool Co (1894 pat) or similar by the Ames Tool Co. There may just be some really big chunks of coal in that bunker so you'll need that pick.

    Lastly, the Pallet style grating used pre-bunkerdoor in days; there was also a smaller half-grate that went in first at the bottom, the larger on top in the guideways on the waterlegs. Check out the DPL photo OP-12191 of former C&S #39. You might also want to gussy up that pallet with some Squarehead N-B-W's, using roundhead rivets for the coachbolt heads. I know I would!

    in New Zealand

    p.s. I went to school with a Wayne Hayes, a distant reletive perhaps?

    1. Looks like I should chastise myself for breaking my own rule of adding a rider. Check the Era and Locomotive # before committing to a specific detail. Sorry Keith, you were 50% correct on the eyelet shaped handle of the Fire-irons. I had been looking at Otto Perry photo's of #8 and #21 (DPL:OP-6058) both of which were sporting D-handles, not noticing that the #22 (DPL:OP-6059) has the Eyelet type.

      Another detail I noticed showed up on some loco's is the Firemans squirthose often coiled around the bottom of the Cab side handrail/grabiron.

      While you're looking at #21, check out those nicely formed Fire-iron Brackets.

      Finally, can any-one offer a reason as to why #5 was the only Mogul to carry COLORADO&SOUTHERN Cast plates on the Smokebox ?

      in NZ

    2. Mr. Upside Down:

      Sorry for a tardy reply: it has been a busy week away from Leadville. You make a bunch of wonderful notes.

      When forming the clinkerhook and the reamer, I had a scrap of .040 steel wire I used as a form. I tried multiple times to 'squish' the end to better match the image and just don't have the right tool or technique to do it. Perhaps I need to just set the reamer in the vise and tap the loop to flatten it? In any case, I will sleep better tonight knowing you found me a prototype.

      Brother d is happy to point out that most C&S locos set out to follow a standard design, and a wreck or time, or both conspired to make them individuals. Overland and PBL have mimicked this practice. My first run model of mogul 9 has no brackets on the tender, so the reamer will have to rest over the water wings. Don't forget we are dealing with people here, and I bet each fireman had their favorite way to stash tools. Work can get in the way of being consistent too.

      I thought I had a proper coal scoop, but when I went looking, I evidently don't have one. So I had to find a stand in: the shovel has been returned to the section crew. Subsequently I have looked at Weisman and PBL and don't see a coal scoop offered as a part. Any ideas out there? Maybe cut down a smaller O scale part?

      I will have to zoom in on the photo and check out the coal pick. On my last trip over the Silverton line, I noted a number of large coal pieces along the ROW. Evidently instead of breaking up the coal, the fireman kicks the large chucks from the deck. I have not observed this on the C&TS, so either the C&TS is more frugal or gets a finer run of coal. I have seen chunks of coal in images along the ROW, but think this would be unusual along the C&S in the cold high country. I recall reading of special coal rates to lure C&S employees to Como, and stories about sending the children out to search the ROW with a bucket for spills off gons. So, I guess proceed with caution on this one.

      I really need to build up some pallets as you describe with some beefy NBW castings. For the moment, I have a part from a stake bed truck, and a couple pallets as stand ins.

      Last, Chris, you posted an awesome close-up of D&RGW 52 posed in Chama sometime in the aughts. The fireman is on the deck, and the agent (or a brakie) is below with his hand on the drinking cup. The water bucket is on top of the water wing, and there is an amazing hand grab casting on the cab. We forget the artistry the nineteenth century builders employed in the construction of these locomotives. Not to mention the variety of uniform and caps deployed by the train crews.

      Keep your observations coming!

      Keith Hayes
      Leadville in Sn3

    3. Apparently google is your friend, Add a standard P.C. rider to that. I would scratchbuild them for my locos but I'm not in small scale anymore and have to build my own tools anyway,so whatever you do, go for it. As to forming D-handles and again, I'm not in small scale anymore, a jig with correct dia rods protruding upwards then feed the wire through and around forming the bends with needlenose, (flat or round) pliers. If you're using brass then anneal it first but if you can find it locally, soft steel Florists wire, comes in various diameters and works easily. Never modelled in 3/16" so not sure what size you'll need.

      If you want to explore Blacksmithing a bit more, get yourself a copy of Foxfire #5 which has a treatise on this lost art. I found a s/h copy here in the 1980's and wore it out, picked up a new copy at the Book Mine in Leadville.


    4. Upside Down C:

      Thanks for the tip. I will have to buy a pack of 5 and put them all on one loco!

      We got the whole Foxfire series for my Grandfather years ago. Don't know what happened to them: they are fine reading, sir.

      All the best, and please, PLEASE keep the detailed photos and commentary coming!

      Keith Hayes
      Leadville in Sn3

  2. Thanks guys! You'all sure have made it fun to go back and look at photographs ever more closely than I ever have before.
    I remember Mike Blazek suggesting to get out some tracing paper and do a pen and ink copy over a photograph. And you'd be amazed at the details that pop out which you would have never noticed before.

  3. Great stuff guys. Thanks Keith for sharing your observations and posting another great photo of No. 8. Was there a date to this photo? The headlamp is a pretty big clue that this was post early 1920s. I always have fun comparing how a locomotive changes over the years and before you now is yet another comparison project. Have fun!