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| Derrell Poole |
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| Derrell Poole |
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| Denver Public Library |
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| Denver Public Library |
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| Derrell Poole |
Saturday, June 28, 2014
Roper's Snapshot Saturday No.6 | 21 Comments - Click Here :
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Ah, Roper, Roper, Roper…. Where Do you come up with these marvelous photos?
ReplyDeleteWith Mogul Month coming to a close we will look at one more C class 2-6-0.
C&S No. 7 was a particularly unique engine in a couple of interesting yet not so apparent ways. By appearances she looked much like her nine sister when she came to the C&S. The first photo shows 7 in Como around 1900. The smooth domes and McConnell stack were applied sometime in the latter half of the 1890s perhaps in conjunction with the rebuilding of Brookes 2-6-0, 162 (22). The domes shown here were the more common style on the 2-6-0s at the Turn of the century and confirmed on 6, 7, 10, 12 and 13. No.s 5, & 8 and possibly 11 had fluted domes. Number 9 and I believe 4 had similar Baldwin style domes. All of them had the McConnell stack until just before the C&S took over when Number 111 (6) was refitted with a long smokebox and a straight stack.
So what made No. 7 special? As early as Sept. 1901 salesmen began courting the C&S to try crude oil as locomotive fuel. Engines on the Fort Worth & Denver City, a railroad belonging to the C&S, were already being converted to oil and the benefits of the fuel were supposedly a lower cost of both the fuel and its handling. By March of 1902 the Railroad had converted No. 6 to an oil burner and was testing the engine on the Morrison run. Contemporary newspaper accounts dwelt upon some of oil’s primary blessings – no smoke and no cinders. The Railroad was touting this for passenger service on the Clear Creek and Platte Canyon lines. As the summer season opened in June, the road had nearly completed its conversion of all the rebuilt 2-6-0s. But there was still one engine left that hadn’t been rebuilt at all. She went into the shops an old coal burner and came out in June, 1902; C&S No. 7 had been rebuild AS an oil burner. She was the only Rebuilt Cooke mogul not converted after the fact. She was also the last of the 2-6-0s rebuilt to a C Class Moguls.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteThe Rebuilt Cookes ran up and down the Clear Creek all summer apparently tendered with fuel out of Denver. They also ran to Morrison and perhaps some distance toward the Platte Canyon but it isn’t clear how far they may have run into the Canyon. So far as we know there were no fuel sources set up outside of Denver. Plans were made to rectify that when two flat cars were converted to tanks and a spur was built inside the Wye at Forks Creek to spot loads of oil for fuel. But with the fall season the oil jets were removed from the fireboxes and the tanks from the tender coalbunkers. Then the price of oil jumped and suddenly the economy of the fuel disappeared. When summer 1903 rolled around the feasibility of fuel oil was no longer advantageous and the re conversion never took place. Indeed not until 104 years later did a Cooke Mogul thunder up and down the Clear Creek district burning oil. No. 9 operated on the Georgetown loop for yet one more season in 2006.
A pressing question arises; if the Rebuilt Cookes were used only in the vicinity of Denver, were the remaining 2-6-0s capable of handling the passenger traffic for the balance of the system? Probably not. It has always puzzling me that the RR used both 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s as regular NG passenger motive power. The evidence is obvious by the presents of the Entwined Herald and deluxe paint jobs on engines better suited to heavier freight traffic. Engine 71 comes to mind. The 2-8-0s were certainly available to Passenger traffic if the need arose and they often filled that roll. But to dedicate the engine by expending the expense and materials reserved to passenger engines has always nagged at me. If the primary passenger engines were not available, by design, to the greater portion of the South Park perhaps it would be expected that some of the 2-8-0s could have been designated to that task at least until the facilities were set up so that the 2-6-0s could run the entire line burning oil. Of course this is only a theory.
Sadly no clear photos of no. 7 just after rebuild have come to light. The photo of No. 8 on the Devils Gate Bridge (see Roper’s Snapshot Saturday No. 3) may have been taken in the summer of 1902. But even if that was the case there are no discernable details of an oil tank in the photo.
Part 3
ReplyDeleteThe headlamp in the second photo of 7 seems to be a style that showed up in 1907. It is my belief this “style” was merely a box surrounding the carbon arc lamp that had been adopted late in 1900. By this point the engine had been repainted with the 1906 Trademark. No. 7 and the rest of the C Class 2-6-0s were then reclassified to B-3C. The letter “B”, indicted the pilot truck had a single axle and there was no trailing truck. The second figure indicated the number of driver axles. The last letter indicated the same thing as the old system; weight and tractive effort. So a B-3C was, in fact, a 2-6-0 of the heaviest class available to the NG – the rebuilt Cookes. Classification marks started showing up on the SG right away but it seems it was a little slow and sporadic on the NG cabs. The earliest examples seem to date from 1907 but in general the use became more common after 1910.
The 3rd photo is an Otto Perry shot dated July 1915. This seems a credible date (beyond the typically reliable reputation of Otto to keep track of dates) as evidence in the photo suggests. A comparison with the second photo will show a number of expected changes. In early 1912 a Colorado Public Utilities law went into effect that required electric headlamps on all locomotives. This meant a steam-operated generator was installed on all of the engines within the first few months of that year. That device was located just ahead of the cab on B-3Cs. Also the lamp has reverted back to the old GE style but of course the innards were no longer carbon arc.
Another difference was the pilot. In 1911 the latest I.C.C. laws went into effect and by 1912 it seems all of the wooden pilot beams were converted to steel tho they still had wooden staves. Just as important to the law, for the first time in decades the pilots now had decks. Note also that the sand lines were converted to externally air operation. This device first shows up in 1910. The Tender trucks have inside hung breaks. Of course there are more differences if anyone cares to enumerate them.
Between the third photo and the forth we see still more changes. The date of this Perry photo is quite specific; 5 July 1918. The most outstanding feature is the advent of the Ridgeway Spark arrestor. This seems to have happened rather quickly in the late spring and the first applications seem to have been to the B-4C class. The RR finally had an effect device to reduce stray embers that the shotgun stack was so prone to produce.
Another not very obvious change was the Second Rebuild of the heavy 2-6-0s that took place in 1917. In this case they were fitted with new frames. This frame changed the wheelbase to make each center-to-center dimension 5 feet.
Part 4
ReplyDeleteAt one time I had thought part of the rebuild was to convert the tenders to where part of the flare was cut away. But No. 7 still has a fully flared tender after the rebuild. The purpose of this change is not apparent tho again one can conjure up any number of reasons. The truth may be that each engine was unique in this regard for a short time – for a short time at least. But it was not particularly associated with the 1917 rebuild. In other words it was yet another experiment.
Between 1918 and the last photo more changes took place. Perhaps the two biggest were the tenders were rebuilt with extended coalbunker sides and the flares were completely gone. Also the headlamps were now a more modern type. This final photo depicts the engine shortly before she was wrecked on Boreas Pass just above Peabody in Mar. of 1928. So it is that 7 was unique in still another way; she was the only Rebuilt Cooke Mogul lost to a wreck. All of the others were scrapped except for No. 9, which is on display in Breckenridge to this day.
We never really got to talk about engines 5, 6, 9 and 10. They each have interesting information to contribute to the overall story and our understanding of their part in the C&S. I’d encourage you to investigate for yourself. Might not be until Mogul Month comes around again that we get back to them.
Derrell
Derrell,
Deletenice work: How substantiated are certain dates, like as shown on some DPL photo's and I'm meaning specific dates, eg not just "between 1900 and 1905" as often seems the case, maybe by Newspaper Accounts perhaps? I am of course referring to the overturning of C&S 13 up above Blackhawk of which several photo's survived, and one DPL (CHS.X9362) is specific even to the day 21st June 1902...and corroborated in CRRA#10 Should this date be correct, then there is a disparity in the "all Moguls converted" as someone-else informed me, maybe He should have been more specific in his first post. It is very obvious that there be no oil tank occupying the coal bunker from the taken on opposite side picture to be found in Pict.Sup/DSP&P, maybe this minor mishap presented the C&S with the "opportunity" to convert her for the rest of the summer? I have (so far) only found #13's mishap to be the only one specifically dated in this period of the "Oil conversion" experiment. I have recently read that another now stating that the conversion(s) were for "several seasons". Can you elaborate on this and as well, why not the B-4-B's?
Have you noticed that the #7's evolution shown above, had the cab-frontdoor originally opening inwards only to be changed to outward opening and towards the Boiler unlike the #5 inward changing to outward away from the boiler. Also #7's door saga was the exact opposite from #8 outwards to inwards.
Anyone-else noticed a couple of Moguls sported screen doors on the cab-fronts as well? Considering how few there were in the B-3-C class, just look at the complex evolution and variety in detail that this lot had. Extraordinary!
As to Roper's Snapshot Saturday #3, 2nd picture of #8 on the "Devils Gate" being possibly an oilburner, I can only offer these observations. Inconclusive given the clear exhaust, could have paused atop the trestle or be moving very so slowly when the picture was taken. In my copy of Pict.Sup/DSP&P photo is dated 1901 and again in your picture, a very slight hump is visible directly above the "8", remembering in Buckwalter's picture she had solid boards behind the steel strapping, indicating a depleted coal pile to me. Finally I could only offer something a little more compelling that if this was an oil burner, the Fireman would have been visible in the cabwindow sitting on his chuff appreciating the fact he doesn't have to shovel all the way to the Plume. There is a slight bump of someone visible in the gangway by the open Fireman's cab-rear door and again I don't know if the Locomotive is moving or not, he doesn't appear to be standing looking out at the scene. I would lean toward the stance as shoveling.
Finally I was also looking around for more pictures of the coiled hoses visible on the tender of #8 (LC McClure photo) shown in Roper's #4 Post, yet found no others on the C&S ng. However there are photos of C&S sg locomotives with them and an awful lot of D&RGW (ng and sg) Consolidations (eg DPL: OP-9378) as well as Ten-wheelers having the same coiled hoses and plumbing above the truck bolster. I can only speculate that these were for cooling wheels/brakes as in running light downgrade in Helper service.
Speaking with a retired steam Enginedriver here, the practice was to cut out the Enginebrakes and use the Tenderbrake only, very far removed from my experience with Diesels even though I had to learn (and promptly forgot) the A6E-T Westinghouse brake.
I sure want to say that this series has been awesome, thanks Roper.
Chris
UpSideDown
in New Zealand
P.S. An error ocurred and was missed in 1st Paragraph: should have been B-3-A.
DeleteC
UpSideDown
Chris, dates in captions that use “about…”, “Circa…”, bracket years, even a single year are meaningless; it’s a guess or repeated from what the author has been told. Even dates like these written on the back of a print are unreliable.
DeleteWhen dates are more specific, like “July 1900”, there is a degree of accuracy. The month may or may not be accurate but often the year is. The best dates are complete such as July 1, 1900. That usually means it was recorded as the photo was taken. DPL photos are all over the board. The Otto Perry collection is pretty accurate. So is the McClure collection. Later period photos tend to be more accurate too.
Most photos were “collected” by the big names of the 50s - 70s (John Maxwell, Dick Kindig, Ed Haley, Richard Ronzio…) They put ads in the paper and purchased boxes of old photos from families and estates. Therefore many photos are now orphaned from their origins. Only what might be written on the backs is left to tell their pedigree.
Today we have compiled a lot of knowledge and understand enough of the railroad’s history and equipment that we can often decode the photo by the content in the view. This in turn helps us correct dates simply by the art of forensics. We know the photo of No. 4 with the long cowcatcher can’t be later than 1903 because L&P couplers were outlawed in 1903.
The same applies to identifying equipment where numbers are not readable. The reoccurring photo of No. 60 and 57 with a coal train east of Pitkin in 1905 is a good example. That photo has been stigmatized by an ancient caption that identified No. 47 because somebody could see a 7 on the dome and they guessed at the rest! Anyone familiar with the engines will figures out the mistake, post haste!
This is the game I enjoy when I study photos – look for the clues that will unlock the secrets we want to know about the view. It is great fun! Sit one evening and go thru your books. It’s like a religious experience… My books grow lit-til yeller stickys like next weeks 5 o’clock shadow. (“No! No! No! Mal! This is not the coal bin at Pitkin! Do you not see the backside of Mt. Princeton in the background? This is HANCOCK”)
Credits. Lest you think I am intrinsically wise about this subject – no one writes history alone. My own part in your casually enjoyment, as you sip your morning copy, is simply my love for this particular railroad and my insatiable desire to know the truth as much as anyone can – truth only comes from facts and all else is the never ending struggle between “knowing” and avoiding prevarications at the same time. I also very much enjoy the rewards of sharing.
ReplyDeleteI am indebted beyond the ability to express gratitude toward Hol Wagner Jr. who has shared with me his astonishing volume “The C&S; the First 10 Years”. This work has to be the Pacific Ocean of anything ever written about the C&S. One begins to sense just how minor the Narrow Gauge truly was to the overall organization and yet how important it is to understand the greater picture. “The C&S; the First 10 Years” is available only on disk direct from Hol (for a ridiculously small fee when one realizes how much this historian has dedicated to this work). Please convey my humble thanks to him when you write to request a copy. For the moment please contact me off line for his email since I haven’t obtained his permission to publish his email address.
I also must thank Rick Steele who is even more dedicated to the truth than I am and who keeps me on the straight and narrow. I also dedicate my sharing with you to John Maxwell who taught me what it was to be an historian and a human being at the same time; to Richard Ronzio and Dick Kindig who were both more than generous; Harry Brunk who is more than patient; and to an entire community of dedicated fans of this railroad.
There is a host of books and institutions involved, too much to name here. Without them we would be both lost and poor. Suffice to say that they provide the very gravity that holds us to the knowledge we do have. My continuing thanks to everyone who has ever contributed anything to what I understand about the C&S today.
to the 'brothers', and the rest,
ReplyDeleteI didn't know that I could comment here. I visit from time to time, though. Didn't really notice the comments thing either- till now. Just want you to know that I sure do appreciate the effort, since my zillion books on the South Park go with too little study these days. Thanks for the lessons in observation, and the observation that sharing lessons is fun. NOW, back to reading all of those comments that have piled up!
Pat Hollingsworth
Welcome Pat!
DeleteUnfortunately the whole comments thing has to do with the software host "Blogger". I've recently written some HTML code to add the comments link after the post titles and to enlarge them at the bottom of each post. Still, I think most people miss these important links.
We're glad you've figured it out. Thanks for joining us!
Of course Blogspots ambiguous replybox didn't help: I used the "Anonymous" before I figured out one can put in just a name in the Name/URL box and still post. :)
DeleteIt did help somewhat that I had already met our Hosts, Darel and Derrell :)
Chris
UpSideDown
in New Zealand
Ah yes. Thanks for bringing that up. We're just trying to get people to find the comments first. How to post a comment is a whole new bag of worms! Thanks Chris!
DeleteBut it is nice to know that you can just type your name in so you are not "Anonymous".
Right Keith? (-;
You talking to me?
DeleteI have (3) Overland gons almost ready to paint.
Keith
Leadville in Sn3
I have enjoyed and learned a great deal from the Mogul Month presentation. I encourage the continued efforts of all involved to share information and observation as they come to light.
ReplyDeleteI have enjoyed and learned a great deal from the Mogul Month presentation and encourage its continuation. Thanks to derrell, darel and roper
ReplyDeleteWelcome Lee. Thanks for the kind comments. Just remember to throw Roper a bone now and then. (-:
DeleteAll, I have attempted to contact Hol Wagner to get permission to post a link where you can purchase his CD book, but have not heard back. Out of respect to his privacy I am reluctant to give out his email. Please be patient.
ReplyDeleteAs to the comments - all I've asked for here. Comments! 'Tis how we learn from each other. And it is encouraging to know the work is appreciated.
Derrell
Derrell,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the Month of Moguls - they look kind of similar to a pair of homespun HOn30 2-6-0s sitting on my workbench! Inspiring stuff - and interesting to read the comments about the development of the C&S Moguls, and the speculation of when & where photos were taken.
Matt
Hi everyone I know that this section is older but ibjust have to say thank to say Roper and everyone. Learned alto.
ReplyDeleteFred Cotterell
Fairhope Alabama
Hi everyone I know that this section is older but ibjust have to say thank to say Roper and everyone. Learned alto.
ReplyDeleteFred Cotterell
Fairhope Alabama
Hi everyone I know that this section is older but ibjust have to say thank to say Roper and everyone. Learned alto.
ReplyDeleteFred Cotterell
Fairhope Alabama