Monday, July 14, 2014

Roper's Snapshot Saturday No.8 | 8 Comments - Click Here :

Roper was camping out this last weekend; hence his late post:

8 Comments - Click Here :
  1. Well Roper, where did you go camping? You know its been 9 years since you and me, Joe and Yukon Jack all went camping near Quartz!

    What has Roper dug up for us this time. Looks like an Ex Kansas Central boxcar built by the UP about 1883. Not being up on the KC too much I'm not sure what numbers the over 100 27 foot cars were assigned on that road but the UPD&G obtained 25 of them in 1893. They numbered the cars 25465 to 25489. All of the cars made it to the C&S and their ledger numbers were 7529 thru 7553. I say ledger because while almost all of them were actually numbered and lettered for the new road one care was not. 25480 was wrecked at South Platte on July 14 (imagine that, Roper) 1899 - one hunnert 'n' fifteen years ago to your (late, btw) Snapshot Saturday post!

    What? That's how you planned it? You are an amazing doggy! And where DID you get this print? Doncha just love all the scribbles and markings in chalk on the side? 25489 became C&S 7553 on 23 Feb. 1900 so this photo was taken before that. It could be the markings tell us more about when this view was shot. Is that a couple chalked dates "99" or maybe "98" under the Herald? There are definitely some Feburary markings that do predate the relettering (2/18?).

    Not sure what became of 7553 ; she lasted until after 1907 but this series of cars was lumped in with a bunch of DL&G 27 foot cars so its a bit hard to tell much of anything about the class after that year.

    Several of the cars were converted to outfits between 1901 and 1905. (7545 to 065,7548 to 080, and 7580 to 060). Unfortunately we can't see the trucks on this car - this would be nice to know but likely they would have been the heavy beamed type we like to call type C as these were 14 ton cars and they are generally unavailable to us modelers - I'm just supposing.

    Anbyway this is a great photo Roper - you done good!


    1. Thanks Brother d! Just the information Roper was hoping for.
      Roper isn't ashamed to admit he was up on Corona Pass. Honorary narrow gauge!

    2. Wow, I've had this picture in my favourites for awhile, I was going to post up on the NGDGF for answers but looks like Roper beat me out.

      1 Those advertisements, top leftside visible on a lot of cars in early photos. Was this a "sold space" ploy by U.P. to generate revenue? Continued by C&S?

      2 The switchman's chalk marks, did they not get rubbed off after a few moves? I notice that the car has previously consigned loaded or MTY to Idaho Springs as well. Did the railroad offer part loads, as opposed to express of lcl traffic, "Idaho 2/16" then "Dumont 2/18", may explain the 2 dates for 5 miles? Maybe it was supposed to go out on one date, delayed or missed connection for some reason or another perhaps leading to the differing dates scribbled on the carsides? Assuming this I am, maybe was loaded to Idaho, is that "Idaho Po House" on the top right, then on to Dumont for loading? Even more interesting is the numbers on the extreme left, are these track numbers in the Denver yards? Our shunters would mark up a string of track numbers on a carside in a group indicating the sequence of roads when kicking out so the next shunter down the gang would pull the points for, switching cars in a certain order.

      3 Is that a Waybill Card above the "Dumont", righthandside under the car #? I know where they went on our railways but never found out where the "Company" preffered to have theirs on the Clear creek and South park lines. There appears to be no dedicated tackboards either.

      4 Is that white painted fasciaboard, a galvanised metal or painted canvas sub-roof under the wooden roof? There appears to be a distinctive pattern to what I assume are cleats, or clamps all the way around. This particular photo shows this detail very well, looking at the Pine (Grove) photo by Buckwalter, the distinction/contrast is not so great.

      what say you on these matters?


      in New Zealand

    3. Chris,

      I'm sure the RR sold ad space on the cars. When they started this and how they charged for the space I've never seen any records. When the New Company came along in 1899 and new cars were purchased it was obvious the practice was on the outs. "Post No Advertisement" was painted onto the St. C. boxcars. Someone could investigate the national trends of the times and perhaps enlighten us about this. If I had to guess on the "simple" evidence of photos I would put the practice of "bill boards" on cars between the mid 1890s and the TOC.

      2 - I would have to defer to your real world experience rather than guess at the meanings of all the chalk marks. And I realize that you are guess just as much. But it is fun....

      3 - That could be a waybill. They didn't have staple guns in those days so something to think about is the conductor or the brake or switchmen or whom ever walking around the yards or spurs with a little hammer and a pouch full of tacks. That would likely be the real world truth about it. That is fun to think about too.

      4 - That is a good point. This doesn't appear to be a double board roof, which was constructed so that water seeping thru the space between the boards on the top layer would be caught by a channel milled into the center of the board on the bottom layer. A layer of canvas would likewise help keep the interior dry. But you can imagine the canvas would not be as durable nor last as long as a second layer of roofing.

      Now here is something for you and the rest of the readers; note that both the car number and the Herald were painted over a box of some color that seems to differ from the main car color. Modelers and historians have postulated that this was a black box but some have also suggested it might be red - in fact the same color of red as the car - just fresh as opposed to faded. I might suggest that it was a red color LIKE the car color but in this case perhaps a different red because the cars came from a RR in a different location where the local paint formula was different; I'm just saying on these cars. The Gulf Road acquired the cars in 1893. Note that the box under the Herald isn't quite as pronounced as that under the number. This suggests the number has been refreshed recently This in turn suggests the car has been on the road several years which offers a clue as to when the photo was take, This is perhaps 1897 to 1899? We know this car was relettered C&S in Feb. 1900. More fun stuff...


    4. Point 4.
      I was alluding to a galvanised metal or painted canvas (more likely at this time period) over the sub-roof but under the top layer of boards. Something to mull over I guess. Right up to steel sheet rooves on our freight wagons and passenger stock, the white painted-on canvas over T&G held sway as the roofing of choice here.


      in New Zealand

  2. Robert McFarlandJuly 16, 2014 at 3:07 PM

    Isn't one of the St.Elmo boxcars a former KC car?

  3. Well...

    that's the story. The number MF offers in "The South Park Line" is 7681. That is a 30 foot Peninsular number (DSP&P 24543). Yet some O.R.E.R. listings suggest these were 27 foot car. So. A lot of digging is required...

  4. Forwarding and Commission Houses.During the Leadville boom it was the method of getting freight moved to Leadville and other places on the line.They are mentioned in the article about Weston in the Fairplay Flume Nov6,1879 issue.There are pictures of Woods Bros warehouse in the DSP&P/D&RG joint yards in Buena Vista.Googling G.E.Ady indicated he was a Denver grain dealer that did commision work.