As you can see the overall photo suggests this view was taken in the middle of a railroad complex. The presence of 3-rail track, tracks diverging, and multiple tracks could indicate a yard area. I have wondered for years about this location. The date, pre-1903, might suggest it was either the new 7th Street complex or the Jersey Junction / 40th Street UP complex. For now this is all I have time to say but there is MUCH to talk about in this photo. Feel free to open the comments!
Derrell, the large Cottonwoods are a hint. I think this is near 7th Street, or perhaps the DSP&P roundhouse. I believe Jersey is too far from the river. My Spidey sense tells me it is Auraria. Too bad the two house cars at the extreme ends of the photo are out of focus. The one behind the tender is a refer while the one on the right appears to be a boxcar.
Those are good guesses Keith but I really don't know what Jersey Junction looked like TOC 1900. Cottonwoods are basically weeds and grow very fast. Can't say how old the trees are in the photo. 40th Street yards were not far from the River either. One exciting thought might be that this was the D&P&P terminal but the roundhouse is NOT identifiable the photos. There are both ng and 3-rail track seen which would suggest DSP&P more than 7th Street. 7th Street was a SG facility with ng accoutrements whereas DSP&P was NG with sg added.
Derrell, on the ground to the switchman's right, the bridle-irons clearly visible on a n.g. stubswitch between the two three-rail switches. Note the excessive gap of the moveable rail at the headblock. I may be observing a link dropping from the far side s.g. coupler pocket, not sure if it is a trick of the light or just a handy place to stow the link when not in use?
Keep it up {:))
UpSideDown C
in NZ
p.s. the last 3 replies to this blog, the spam code has come up with train numbers I used to run out of my first depot....that deserves a big thumbs up!
Actually I need to make a small correction to my above statement. I said this was pre 1903. In fact it is very likely that this is 1903. However it isn't much later than 1903 - at most early 1904.
Can anyone tell me why I believe this? Hint - there are two VERY obvious clues (to those who may remember what they've been told over the last several years). Don't be afraid to guess - your intuition may be better than you thing. It's all for fun and learning anyway.
I am going to try and spoil it for the others and take a stab: the split knuckle on the coupler, and the air tank mod between the domes?
I checked your post on the UPD&G shops thinking that this might have been taken in the 'west' yard with the Stores building behind the loco and the roundhouse beyond, but the pieces don't line up. I continue to believe this is 7th Street as opposed to Jersey.
Saddled air tanks started showing up as early as late 1900. The knuckle couplers were an ICC thing under the 1903 Safety Appliances laws. Perhaps the knuckle couplers started showing up in 1902 but I tend to believe the RR didn't get to the ng any quicker than it had to. The SG was the primary focus in the early years - well, generally it was always the focus. The C&S was a SG line that happened to have ng. I think we forget that sometimes and yet it is important to understanding this RR.
Let's see, Knuckle couplers per the Safety Appliance Act of 1903 and the short smokebox (hasn't been extended yet)? Also a note on the reefer - it's a St. Charles reefer. Look at the truck on the right side of the car - That's not a So. Park truck! That's a Penninsular/St. Charles truck from the 1899 car order.
Well the coupler presence sets it pretty much to at least 1903. And you are technically right about the smoke box. Smoke boxes changed with stack types and shotgun stacks with extended smoke boxes started showing up even before 1899 (No. 112 was fitted with this equipment even as a post-McConnell DL&G engine). Perhaps if you've never seen the 2 part Power Point presentation I've given at conventions the question is a bit unfair. The reason I know this isn't any later than early 1904 is because a list of engines still requiring straight stacks in mid 1904 did not include 64; which, of course, means it had already been converted. These conversions seem to be completed by 1905.
I get the same thing on the reefer in the background tho can't say for certain it isn't a SG car. If this is in the vicinity of the DSP&P Terminal, Colorado Ice and Cold Storage is just down the street - which ever street that might be. By then they were operating a mechanical loader that could load ice into about 40 cars an hour. But the buildings behind the engine don't strike me as the CI&CS plant.
What about C&S on the tender flange and a large 64 on the tender body?Notice the bracket mounted on the smokebox for mounting a snowplow-theres a picture of her near Alpine Tunnel with one mounted on her.Super-long smokebox on Cooke moguls seem to only show up in pictures taken during the late DSP&P days-Rhode Island Consolidations came delivered with them.Later pictures on the DL&G show both engine classes with short smokeboxes and various styles of diamond stacks.Notice what seems to be a C&S family style smokebox front on the 64.
In this case the original lettering on C&S locos don't help answer the questions since that started in the spring of 1899 and lasted until June 1906. There is a photo of 64 in 1899 - probably in the spring after it was relettered with the smaller plow winched in the up position. The engine is up to her bloomers in snow. The thing is 1899 was a really rough winter. So by spring or perhaps the next winter the big plow brackets were installed on the smoke box, ready for battle as it were. The second photo shows this engine in a wreck with the plow - but no air tanks. Not late 1900 - early 1900. Then the photo shown here suggests the brackets, which must be premanently attached are seen with double air tanks and knuckle coupler. BTW the photo of 64 with the big plow is the last time we see that tool. Can you reference the shot at Alpine?
Yes, the late '80s smoke boxes on the Cooke Moguls and the Rhode Island engines were super long with stratight capped stacks. The smoke box front on 64 was the original style of the Baldwins (63 to 73) with bolted door - not dogs. Dogged doors were eventually universal after the smoke boxes were extended (or in a few cases replaced). A Photo of 69 shows it still had the old door after the smokebox was extented - bolted, not dogged - in 1905.
Smoke boxes are a special study. They often vary in small details like how many rivets, how many dogs, door diameters, fillets and rounding or not rounding. Are the doors inset or are they lapped over? Every one of the Rhode Island doors were different except 2 - and I'm still not sure about that.
Stacks were another special study - actually every engine is a special study! Stacks, both diamond and straight, varied from engine to engine. Not until the 1918 or so were they more or less uniform.
There is much more to say about this engine. I provided 3 close-ups to help us investigate this. Some of the features are minute. Some are huge. Let’s start at the front; who noticed the pin of one of the coupler pockets is up? Did y'all see the two large rings looped into the headlamp bracket and the lanyard hanging from the one on the far side? These are just incidental details. Anyone notice where the marker lamps were located? This is a significant detail and I believe it speaks to the mounting of the giant plow. The traditional location would probably have been inconvenient.
Previous photos of 64 (dated 1899 to 1900) show it had the long stroke main rods but here it has the short stroke. The cab has been rebuilt but not the smokebox. This was a direct result of that wreck in 1899 or 1900 and demonstrates how piecemeal rebuilding actually was. Did anyone catch that this is one of the long tanks? Perhaps the tank was a result of that wreck too. Notice how close the back of the tank is to the tender rear sill. Of course y'all saw the backup lamp but notice how crowded it is on the back of the deck. The long tanks started showing up around 1900. Harry Brunk postulated that they might have been taken from smaller SG engines being retired. I've not looked into that.
There are many other details, like the diminutive sizes of the cab windows compared to the older cabs, the additional piping probably due to the dual air tanks, and who missed those odd trucks? Trucks on the TOC C&S / DL&G-UPD&G engines were commonly one of the Swing Beam variations we call type B and C. These trucks have no correlation that I've seen.
I'm sure if y'all put your glasses on you will find much that I've either forgotten to mention or even missed.
As you can see the overall photo suggests this view was taken in the middle of a railroad complex. The presence of 3-rail track, tracks diverging, and multiple tracks could indicate a yard area. I have wondered for years about this location. The date, pre-1903, might suggest it was either the new 7th Street complex or the Jersey Junction / 40th Street UP complex. For now this is all I have time to say but there is MUCH to talk about in this photo. Feel free to open the comments!
ReplyDeleteDerrell
Roper, love the McConnel stack!
ReplyDeleteDerrell, the large Cottonwoods are a hint. I think this is near 7th Street, or perhaps the DSP&P roundhouse. I believe Jersey is too far from the river. My Spidey sense tells me it is Auraria. Too bad the two house cars at the extreme ends of the photo are out of focus. The one behind the tender is a refer while the one on the right appears to be a boxcar.
Keith
Leadville in Sn3.
Those are good guesses Keith but I really don't know what Jersey Junction looked like TOC 1900. Cottonwoods are basically weeds and grow very fast. Can't say how old the trees are in the photo. 40th Street yards were not far from the River either. One exciting thought might be that this was the D&P&P terminal but the roundhouse is NOT identifiable the photos. There are both ng and 3-rail track seen which would suggest DSP&P more than 7th Street. 7th Street was a SG facility with ng accoutrements whereas DSP&P was NG with sg added.
DeleteBut these are all guesses.
Ball-weighted ground throws in use there. {:))
ReplyDeleteUpSideDown C
in New Zealand
Probably but I don't see any. If you do let me know...
DeleteDerrell, on the ground to the switchman's right, the bridle-irons clearly visible on a n.g. stubswitch between the two three-rail switches. Note the excessive gap of the moveable rail at the headblock.
DeleteI may be observing a link dropping from the far side s.g. coupler pocket, not sure if it is a trick of the light or just a handy place to stow the link when not in use?
Keep it up {:))
UpSideDown C
in NZ
p.s. the last 3 replies to this blog, the spam code has come up with train numbers I used to run out of my first depot....that deserves a big thumbs up!
Actually I need to make a small correction to my above statement. I said this was pre 1903. In fact it is very likely that this is 1903. However it isn't much later than 1903 - at most early 1904.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone tell me why I believe this? Hint - there are two VERY obvious clues (to those who may remember what they've been told over the last several years). Don't be afraid to guess - your intuition may be better than you thing. It's all for fun and learning anyway.
Derrell:
ReplyDeleteI am going to try and spoil it for the others and take a stab: the split knuckle on the coupler, and the air tank mod between the domes?
I checked your post on the UPD&G shops thinking that this might have been taken in the 'west' yard with the Stores building behind the loco and the roundhouse beyond, but the pieces don't line up. I continue to believe this is 7th Street as opposed to Jersey.
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
Saddled air tanks started showing up as early as late 1900. The knuckle couplers were an ICC thing under the 1903 Safety Appliances laws. Perhaps the knuckle couplers started showing up in 1902 but I tend to believe the RR didn't get to the ng any quicker than it had to. The SG was the primary focus in the early years - well, generally it was always the focus. The C&S was a SG line that happened to have ng. I think we forget that sometimes and yet it is important to understanding this RR.
DeleteDerrell
Let's see, Knuckle couplers per the Safety Appliance Act of 1903 and the short smokebox (hasn't been extended yet)? Also a note on the reefer - it's a St. Charles reefer. Look at the truck on the right side of the car - That's not a So. Park truck! That's a Penninsular/St. Charles truck from the 1899 car order.
ReplyDeleteWell the coupler presence sets it pretty much to at least 1903. And you are technically right about the smoke box. Smoke boxes changed with stack types and shotgun stacks with extended smoke boxes started showing up even before 1899 (No. 112 was fitted with this equipment even as a post-McConnell DL&G engine). Perhaps if you've never seen the 2 part Power Point presentation I've given at conventions the question is a bit unfair. The reason I know this isn't any later than early 1904 is because a list of engines still requiring straight stacks in mid 1904 did not include 64; which, of course, means it had already been converted. These conversions seem to be completed by 1905.
DeleteI get the same thing on the reefer in the background tho can't say for certain it isn't a SG car. If this is in the vicinity of the DSP&P Terminal, Colorado Ice and Cold Storage is just down the street - which ever street that might be. By then they were operating a mechanical loader that could load ice into about 40 cars an hour. But the buildings behind the engine don't strike me as the CI&CS plant.
What about C&S on the tender flange and a large 64 on the tender body?Notice the bracket mounted on the smokebox for mounting a snowplow-theres a picture of her near Alpine Tunnel with one mounted on her.Super-long smokebox on Cooke moguls seem to only show up in pictures taken during the late DSP&P days-Rhode Island Consolidations came delivered with them.Later pictures on the DL&G show both engine classes with short smokeboxes and various styles of diamond stacks.Notice what seems to be a C&S family style smokebox front on the 64.
ReplyDeleteIn this case the original lettering on C&S locos don't help answer the questions since that started in the spring of 1899 and lasted until June 1906. There is a photo of 64 in 1899 - probably in the spring after it was relettered with the smaller plow winched in the up position. The engine is up to her bloomers in snow. The thing is 1899 was a really rough winter. So by spring or perhaps the next winter the big plow brackets were installed on the smoke box, ready for battle as it were. The second photo shows this engine in a wreck with the plow - but no air tanks. Not late 1900 - early 1900. Then the photo shown here suggests the brackets, which must be premanently attached are seen with double air tanks and knuckle coupler. BTW the photo of 64 with the big plow is the last time we see that tool. Can you reference the shot at Alpine?
DeleteYes, the late '80s smoke boxes on the Cooke Moguls and the Rhode Island engines were super long with stratight capped stacks. The smoke box front on 64 was the original style of the Baldwins (63 to 73) with bolted door - not dogs. Dogged doors were eventually universal after the smoke boxes were extended (or in a few cases replaced). A Photo of 69 shows it still had the old door after the smokebox was extented - bolted, not dogged - in 1905.
Smoke boxes are a special study. They often vary in small details like how many rivets, how many dogs, door diameters, fillets and rounding or not rounding. Are the doors inset or are they lapped over? Every one of the Rhode Island doors were different except 2 - and I'm still not sure about that.
Stacks were another special study - actually every engine is a special study! Stacks, both diamond and straight, varied from engine to engine. Not until the 1918 or so were they more or less uniform.
These are all good comments!
Derrell
There is much more to say about this engine. I provided 3 close-ups to help us investigate this. Some of the features are minute. Some are huge. Let’s start at the front; who noticed the pin of one of the coupler pockets is up? Did y'all see the two large rings looped into the headlamp bracket and the lanyard hanging from the one on the far side? These are just incidental details. Anyone notice where the marker lamps were located? This is a significant detail and I believe it speaks to the mounting of the giant plow. The traditional location would probably have been inconvenient.
ReplyDeletePrevious photos of 64 (dated 1899 to 1900) show it had the long stroke main rods but here it has the short stroke. The cab has been rebuilt but not the smokebox. This was a direct result of that wreck in 1899 or 1900 and demonstrates how piecemeal rebuilding actually was. Did anyone catch that this is one of the long tanks? Perhaps the tank was a result of that wreck too. Notice how close the back of the tank is to the tender rear sill. Of course y'all saw the backup lamp but notice how crowded it is on the back of the deck. The long tanks started showing up around 1900. Harry Brunk postulated that they might have been taken from smaller SG engines being retired. I've not looked into that.
There are many other details, like the diminutive sizes of the cab windows compared to the older cabs, the additional piping probably due to the dual air tanks, and who missed those odd trucks? Trucks on the TOC C&S / DL&G-UPD&G engines were commonly one of the Swing Beam variations we call type B and C. These trucks have no correlation that I've seen.
I'm sure if y'all put your glasses on you will find much that I've either forgotten to mention or even missed.
Derrell