Randy Rieck - Seeing the recent picture of C&S boxcar #7681 was of
special interest to me.
While researching the two cars remaining at St Elmo prior to
modeling them, I
discovered that Mal Ferrell in both C&S ng and The South Park Line reported one of the
cars to be #7298.
Inside the other car reported to be #7681, is stenciled C&S 7611 over
the door openings. Here is a picture from earlier this
month. This only confirms
the difficulty in sorting out this old equipment. If I am missing something, I am
sure someone will straighten me out. The model I built is
lettered for #7611.
Randy Rieck
In Digerness' Mineral Belt V2 caption for pg 299 reads
ReplyDelete"The lettering "U P" could still be read on the far boxcar, numbered 2595(sic), when Mac Poor shot this picture during June of 1940, at St. Elmo. The near boxcar is numbered 7298, and is lettered for C&S. "
#7298 was supposed to be the former DL&G(UP) 24148.
UpSideDownC
Chris
in New Zealand
Correction to " numbered 2595(sic)," should read
DeleteIn Digerness' Mineral Belt V2 caption for pg 299 reads
"The lettering "U P" could still be read on the far boxcar, numbered 2592(sic), when Mac Poor shot this picture during June of 1940, at St. Elmo. The near boxcar is numbered 7298, and is lettered for C&S. "
(sic) I added for the missing "1" in the number.
Sorry, I should have cleaned my glasses first :)
UpSideDownC
Finally after wading all through my C&S books, I can point you in the direction of a Jackson Thode photo of C&S# 7298 on pg8 of Grandt's N.G.Pict viii and also photo of UPD&G #25192 on pg 24.
ReplyDeleteI checked my numbers posted this time. :)
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
The number you see behind the 7611 is NOT a DSP&P/DL&G number. This was the post June 1885 KC number for one of their 14 ton, 27 foot Boxcars numbered 25100 to 25203 (104 units) . The number on page 24 of Vol. VIII was chalked in by John Maxwell (and Jackson Thode iirc), which they found on the car when he took the photo. There was no such number on DSP&P/DL&G or UPD&G. No car came to the C&S officially numbered 25192. Car 7611 equates ex-KC car, DL&G 24659.
ReplyDeleteDerrell,
Deletewhat then is your take on the discrepancy in the above photo and in this new information, has there been a numerical mistake made in the stenciling or the offical notation of the car number in the record I wonder? I have only read the books, when I saw those cars in '92 they were looking sorry and I chose not to enter.
UpSideDownC
in New Zealand
Chris, that the "discrepancy" is merely a missing number. The Renumbering schedule says 7611 came from DL&G 24657. The car was marked UP 25192. This is a pretty complete numbering history with only the original 3-digit KC number not actually given. The renumbering hasn't any indication it had mistakes in it - not even "corrections that I recall. So when things don't make sense the default is first - "what are we missing"; not - "did they make a mistake?" We have phantoms and relics to examine. They had a team of officers, supervisors, and minions who vetted the actual cars.
DeleteExcuse me - DL&G 24659. (I'm still in high gear here).
DeleteNo one has said what may be obvious - that I know of. If I missed that comment my apologies. A viable explanation for the lack of the 24659 number would be that the car was never renumbered in the late 1890s and it came to the C&S still in its UP numbering. The Maxwell photo of the car with the chalked lettering is a strong supporter of this. So is the photo above where the C&S number is superimposed over the UP number inside the car.
When coming downgrade from the east portal of Alpine Tunnel this August I briefly stopped to look at the two cars but didn't get out of my pickup.It looked like they had put up a partial shelter over the KC car.The thing that looked odd to me is that the flooring in the car looked like it was installed lengthwise rather than crosswise.Was this some repair done after it became a shed?(or an optical illusion?)
ReplyDeleteThere have been quite a few posts on the St.Elmo Boxcars on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum- Chris has posted there-and one man posted a photo and drawings of the KC car.
ReplyDeleteMr. Ferrell graciously acknowledged today that the C&S boxcar at St. Elmo under discussion is
ReplyDeletein all probability C&S 7611. See the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum for more posts.
Thanks Randy for an informative post. Not sure how a conversation which started here, ended on a different website. But I'm glad to know there is finally closure to the matter.
ReplyDeletePerhaps this format is not an acceptable way to have these conversations anymore?
Darel,
DeleteI perhaps started it upon mentioning UP boxcars on the South Park lines in a Sumpter Valley thread on the NGDGF in July last year. Having seen personally the St Elmo cars and the pictures in several of my books, I quoted Jackson Thode and Mac Poor, authorities in my eyes and with photographic evidence to boot. I was not aware at the time that those gentlemen had in fact chalked an incorrect number into history.
I was well aware that Digerness had dropped out one digit in his caption and posted that contrary to information published by Mal Ferrell in his latest South Park line book. My post was answered by Ken Martin, I didn't cross check until Randy Rieck posted here this Posts title picture which left me with a sense of Deja Vu.
That led me to find the Sumpter Valley thread and check those numbers again. I was not aware of the non use of the KC #25192 (shown in Thode's Photo, N.G.Pict viii) and the true #25659. Conseqently I reposted on the DGDGF and was addressed by Mal in the newer thread. I pointed Mal to Mr Riecks post here for comment.
And FWIW I do think that this is the appropriate venue to have these C&S related conversations free of those who ardently support the C&TS to all exclusion of other Railroads.
I for one frequent every spot in town hoping to get to the bottom of any unintended error. Just look at one mistake I made in my 1st post in this here thread, and corrected it. Derrell also did the same and this obviously was what Mal had done all those years ago. Human error Eh!
I kinda feel like I have just had to write a Report to the Locomotive Supervisor {:))
As it doesn't concern the C&S, this misreported numbering saga reminded me of a mishap 30 odd years ago on the old NZR, which I shall be relating soon on the NGDGF if you wish to read it.
UpSideDownC
(better informed now)
in New Zealand
No worries Chris! Although you may be demoted to fireman and transferred to the C&TS for that. Lol!
DeleteThanks for clarifying how it went down. And also to all the others who helped solve the riddle both here and on the NGDF.
Actually I believe that the discussions on both forums started indepently of each other.By checking ALL of the available sources on an a topic you can end up with info you might otherwise have missed.I enjoy this group because of the tons of historic photos(and the disection and study of them,model photos and construction tips.Also the resource list and links provide interesting info and tips Remember that you post on the NGDF from time to time.We're trying to attract people from other groups to this group and people from this group to other groups.I would say that this is the BEST group to have these conversations.
DeleteI'd like to thank all of you who helped to accurately identify and document the two boxcars at St. Elmo. Over the years it seems a number of errors have been made, some my own fault, and its looks like the main issues have been discussed and corrected. There is still the question of the original KC number of #C&S 7611 was and it appears that this car never received the intended DL&G number 24659 before going to the C&S. It is pretty clear that C&S 7298 was the former SL&G (UP) 24148. My thanks to all you helped.-Mal Ferrell
ReplyDeleteWelcome Mal.
DeleteThanks for helping to solve this mystery.
I was the one that posted the drawing and photo of the 27' Kansas Central boxcar, at St. Elmo. If someone is interested in my sketches and notes, from my 2006 measuring of the car, let me know. I think there are 4 pages showing everything that is remaining, that was original to the car. I measured all of the car framing and ironwork that remains and my drawing reflects some reconstruction of the draft beams, based on the length of bolts remaining. Bolt and nut sizes are included in the notes.
ReplyDeleteDave Johnson
Welcome Dave.
DeleteThanks for the offer of your notes and sketches.