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Saturday, August 2, 2014
Roper's Snapshot Saturday No.11 | 8 Comments - Click Here :
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Thank you, Roper! If I had a dog he would be just like you… (sorry Fudd).
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the first three photos; my friend John Robinson took the first in 1969. I also have 4 or 5 more shots of the car supplied by John taken a year later. The second and third came from my friend, John Maxwell, taken in August of 1972. I also have one other photo that I’m not sure where it came from….
It is my understanding that this car was destroyed by dismantling in or about 1975 – apparently the wood being carried off and used in someone’s “home project”. In the late ‘70s it was gone.
I supplied these photos to Roper in order to finish up some thoughts from last week that were left hanging about how much this particular relic might contribute to the question of Reefer Colors. As I mentioned before two investigators indicated they has examined the paint layers on this car and both seem to indicate white was one of the colors they found. Unfortunately, “eye witness” accounts can be questionable – not to denigrate anyone.
Case in point – one of the two gentlemen has written and published that the car he examined was the one in the photo on page 325 of the volume “The South Park Line” by Mal Ferrell. If you compare that photo to the above it is clearly not the same car. The 1918 Valuation Map V-Colo-18 / S-T 35b (supplied by my friend Rick Steele) records that the shed was in the same location as John and John found it over 50 years later.
I’m not sure what MF was talking about in both the bound volume and the DSP&PHS’s publication (listed last week).
Russ Collman testifies he found white paint next to the wood. The question is; was this an original car or had it been rebuilt in 1902 or ’03? A few were not – being wrecked or at least dismantled. This provides doubt in the thought that white paint could not have been found because the original siding had been removed and the cars were painted a yellow (or perhaps orange?). It would be nice to know when the car was set out – and, even better, to know WHICH car it was.
The above photos may still be able to help tip the scales to one option or the other. If this car was not rebuilt before it was set out, would we not see some evidence of the Tiffany devises? The biggest clue might be the intake vents on the ends of the car. Certainly there is no sign of this on one end but on the other there was an additional board tacked to the upper right quadrant. In fact, the location of this board does seem to correspond to the vent location in photos of the SP cars. This does seem to have been a car that didn’t have the Tiffany devices removed. A plausible explanation for the other end of the car would be that the sheathing had been replaced.
In reality we are really no closer to certainty of the color of the original cars. Was the white really white? Could it have been faded “mint green”? Was Russ remembering correctly (not to doubt him in particular)? Indeed we still cannot certainly say this wasn’t a rebuilt car; the board could have been coincidental. In the end we will all weight the evidence… and then do as we please with our models.
Derrell
Part 2
ReplyDeleteWe should keep in mind what this shed was used for; the storage of oils used in the roundhouse. The logic of using a refrigerator body would make sense because in both winter and summer temperatures might be an issue. An insulated car would be a good choice for storing materials that could be affected by the temperature. As I recall (iirc) John did tell me they found sawdust in the siding of the car – there was no question it was a refrigerator body. One can imagine that one end of the car was re sheathed but for whatever reason the other end simply had a board tacked over an opening. That end was the North end of the shed.
The shed was located about 100 feet Southeast of the roundhouse and about 50 feet Northeast of the turntable. Perhaps you can get a better idea of this from the bottom photo on page 117 of “C&Sng” By Mal Ferrell. The shed sat just to the left of the end of the track off the TT to the far right of this view.
The upper photo on that page shows 69 on the TT. The view is looking nearly the opposite direction as the bottom view. The structure on the far left in that view seems to be the Sand house. One can also see the abandoned dual gauge track off the TT just below 69’s pilot truck.
I will get to the other two items shortly - but if you have any comments or can offer further thought - please feel free.
Derrell
Fabulous information Brother d! Thank you.
DeleteLooking forward to your Ice articles d.
ReplyDeleteThose of you who have taken the time to examine the last two figures above may have come to realize these are about the Colorado Ice & Cold Storage company; something I’ve occasionally referred to in the past. The map indicates where it was located – along the old South Park tracks south of the Denver yards. In fact today the location is the site of a lot of flattened warehouse type buildings practically underneath I-25 and just south of Colfax Avenue (Colfax Viaduct on the map.) I believe the land itself is now owned by the State of Colorado.
ReplyDeleteThe first listing of the Colorado Ice & Cold Storage Company was in the Corbett Ballingers 19th Annual Denver City Directory (of 1891). The Company was listed as Colorado Ice & Storage Co., 88 Grand Avenue near D&SP RY. In the 1892 (20th Annual) Business Directory (now Richard Ballingers) more information is offered as; F.K. Sowers pres. W.H. Wallace sec. Grand Avenue near D&SP RY. The company was locally known as the Artesian Ice Company and in fact we see this very listing in the 18th Annual (1890) version of the Directory. But that listing indicates the office location of the Artesian Ice Co. was located at 1417 Lawrence with no clue as to where the actual plant was. It is not with certainty that one can assume this company was one and the same CI&S Co but there is a huge hint that it very likely was indeed.
There were two kinds of ice available in Denver in the early 1890s – Natural Ice and Artesian Ice. What is the difference? Natural ice was harvested from lakes during winter months when temperatures naturally froze lakes, ponds, and rivers. It was cut – harvested - by hearty souls and crude tools, loaded onto ordinary boxcars and shipped to Refrigerator Warehouses for distribution during warmer seasons. It was laborious hard work and it was difficult to keep the water clean prior to freezing so that mud, debris and other contaminates did not spoil it. Furthermore the winter months were not always ideally cold so that there was always the risk of loosing the harvest or perhaps only reaping a portion of the potential.
Artesian ice was theoretically derived from well water. Wikipedia defines Artesian water as from an aquifer that has positive pressure upon, which forces the water toward the surface. All well and good but in practical terms what it means is Ice that was (and is) mechanically generated from a controlled source. In other words, the Artesian Ice Co., as its name implied, made its own ice by mechanical means… year around. To my knowledge, during the 1890s when this technology was coming into its own there were only two sources of “Artesian” ice in Denver. One was the Zang’s Brewing Company, which made all of its own ice, and the other was the Artesian Ice Co. That isn’t to say there wasn’t another but I’ve not found the least hint of such.
We see in a letter from F. K. Sowers to Gen. Superintendent Dyer (C&SRY) on August 30th, 1900; “…we cannot see how we propose to furnish natural ice at $2.25 per ton, when we do not deal in it. (All our ice is artesian ice.)” Thus we can understand that CI&CS Co did indeed mechanically generate its ice. This company was likely a new iteration of the old Artesian Ice Company, which simply disappears after 1890.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteThe reasons I find it so apropos to share this with you is because when discussing refrigerator cars of the south Park – indeed the C&S – the question always comes up; how and where were the SP cars iced? And it is a BIG question with, to date very little by way of answer. Well hopefully I can help understand this a little better. I’ve already spouted off about ice being wagoned up to team tracks and ice loaded into the car’s bunkers thru the side doors. Well there is more to it and the CI&CS Co was indeed a huge player along with many other companies the SP & the C&S dealt with. It even affects my Buffalo layout – in a good way. I’ll be sharing this with you over the next few weeks - or how ever long it takes and as my time permits.
The Denver Directory Annuals come from the DPL. The bulk of the information comes from Hol Wagner’s fabulous work “The C&S the First 10 Years”. Of course you will have to put up with my humble attempt to convey this information – in my own words as it were – until such time as the book is actually available.
About the photo; this was taken in 1927 when an altercation of autos occurred in front of the CI&CS warehouses. I have compared the map (of 1917 vintage) to the photo over and over and still have not been able to tell exactly where the wreck occurred. Grand Street had become Colfax Avenue by the time the map was made and in the 10 years between the ICC maps and this photo the plant could have grown considerably.
Derrell
I realize the map I provided is a bit hard to read and I will be providing a better close-up of the plant next week. The purpose of this map was to make you aware of where the plant was located. I believe the street immediately to the S.E. of the plant was (is) Shoshone.
ReplyDeleteDerrell
I believe I've finally figured out where this photo was taken; it was at the corner of 5th and Curtis looking more or less South West at the east side of the CI&CS plant, You are looking down Curtis Street which turns into W. Colfax and the intersection where the photo of the "teamsters" was taken. In the above ICC map this wreck was located right at the bottom of the map.
ReplyDeleteDerrell